Fatty15 with Dr. Stephanie Venn-Watson | Longevity Optimization Podcast

Today I'm speaking with Dr. Stephanie Venn-Watson on the Longevity Optimization Podcast. In this episode, we discuss the intriguing concept of longevity molecules, with a particular focus on C15 fatty acid and its implications for health and aging. Our conversation explores various longevity molecules, their mechanisms, and the surprising findings from research on dolphins that led to the discovery of C15 as a key factor in healthy aging. We emphasize the importance of understanding dietary sources of C15 and its role in promoting longevity and overall health.

Dr. Stephanie Venn-Watson is a leading researcher in the field of longevity and nutrition, dedicated to uncovering the connections between dietary components and health outcomes. Throughout our discussion, we delve into the significance of C15 fatty acid in relation to aging, health, and nutrition. We highlight how C15 influences biological age, cell stability, and the implications of iron overload. The conversation also explores the multifaceted benefits of C15, particularly for women's health and infant nutrition, while emphasizing the importance of optimizing C15 levels for overall well-being. Additionally, we draw parallels between the longevity of dolphins and human health, introducing emerging research on C15's role in mental health, providing listeners with valuable insights into this promising area of study.

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Timestamps

00:00 Introduction to Longevity and Health

02:48 Understanding Longevity Molecules

05:54 Mechanisms of Longevity Molecules

08:55 Research on Dolphins and Aging

12:06 The Discovery of C15 Fatty Acid

14:53 C15 vs Omega-3 Fatty Acids

18:02 C15's Role in Longevity

20:53 C15 Levels and Health Outcomes

23:58 C15 in Diet and Lifestyle

28:30 The Role of C15 in Aging and Cell Stability

31:24 Understanding Iron Overload and Its Health Implications

34:38 C15: A Multifaceted Molecule for Health

37:15 C15 and Its Impact on Women's Health

40:04 The Importance of C15 in Infant Nutrition

42:01 Optimizing C15 Levels for Better Health

44:42 Lessons from Dolphins: Longevity and Health

52:27 Emerging Research on C15 and Mental Health

Transcript

[00:00:00.240] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

All right, so today on the longevity optimization podcast, we have Dr. Stephanie Venn-Watson. She's a distinguished veterinarian, epidemiologist, and public health scientist with a career dedicated to advancing both human and animal health. She earned a Bachelor of Science in Animal Physiology and Neuroscience from the University of California, San Diego, her Doctor of Veterinary Medicine from the Tufts University, and her Master's of Public Health from Emory University. Further enhancing her expertise, she. She has served as a National Research Council associate with the Armed Forces Medical Intelligence center and has worked with the esteemed organizations such as the cdc. Right. Yeah. Cd. The center for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization and the Defense Advanced Research Project Agency. That was a lot. But welcome to the podcast.

[00:00:53.310] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Oh, it's great to be here. Great to be here, Kayla.

[00:00:55.840] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. Yeah. It's such a pleasure to have you. Today we're gonna be talking about a lot of longevity molecules, which I'm so excited to talk about.

[00:01:02.590] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, absolutely excited to be able to chat about them. All things longevity. You may know a few things about that.

[00:01:08.140] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I think I might know a thing or two. Yeah. I'm excited to exchange info, definitely, on the topic. So what is. How do you define, like a longevity molecule or nutrient?

[00:01:18.920] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Right. It's a great question.

[00:01:19.970] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Right.

[00:01:20.240] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Because it's. If you ask a lot of people who aren't in our space, longevity interested, and you'll actually find a lot of women, Kayla will say, no, thank you. Oh, isn't that crazy? And so, and I had the same reaction, and I would lean in and say, well, why did you. Why was your immediate reaction, no. And they said, well, I don't want to. Living in my eyes, living a long time means I'm going to be unhealthy and frail for longer my life, and I'm going to be alone. And I'd rather just live a full, healthy life. So, so then. So, you know, for. So for us, longevity is, you know, I know that we're well aligned. It's living as healthy for as long as possible. And by doing that, through these longevity molecules called geroprotectors, we can actually slow the rate at which we age, delay the onset of these chronic conditions that kill us, that then allow us not only to stay healthy, but to live longer, to extend our own longevity. So that's the. The space we want to be in.

[00:02:22.870] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I love that. You know what? I'm going to shut the door only because I hear a little birdie is, like, going off, so can I have.

[00:02:29.200] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

A little cartoon one land.

[00:02:30.420] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. It's like really? I don't know. They're, they're speaking to each other right now. Okay, great. So, I mean, I absolutely love that. So I take a lot of things that I would consider longevity molecules. But what are some of your favorites? Like what are some of the most common ones before we kind of dive into what you're working on?

[00:02:48.190] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, absolutely. So with, with regard to the leading longevity molecules that are in this base of having evidence of slowing aging, the leader is rapamycin by far. And then following along that are molecules like metformin acarbose. And we'll talk about, in the book, we Talk about the 7 longevity must haves and how we work down that list, working with Dr. Nick Schork, who's the head of NIH's longevity consortium. So it's like, how do we find those molecules that are going to have the most meaningful impact to a broad population of people?

[00:03:26.660] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I love that. While we're on the topic, would you mind to just talk a little bit about the mechanisms of some of the longevity molecules like rapamycin and metformin that you mentioned?

[00:03:36.560] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Right. So with, so we'll start with rapamycin because I just put it right at the top of the list. So rapamycin targets, its strongest target is inhibiting mtor, the mechanistic target of rapamycin. So I mean, it's so much part of the longevity pathway, human longevity regulating pathway, that it has its own name in it of mtor. So the way that these mechanisms were discovered was through a caloric restriction which has repeatedly been shown in multiple animal models, that if you restrict calories that extends longevity, that, that opened up the ability for scientists to understand and map out the pathway to longevity. And so a lot of these molecules, in fact all of them, all the leaders, target different components of this pathway that caloric restriction does. So MTOR is a little further down the pathway that rapamycin inhibits. And then metformin activates ampk, which is really at the heart of the longevity pathway and helps not only with, you know, metformin is used, one of the most commonly used drugs for first line treatment for diabetes, type 2 diabetes. It was only later that they found that it's tapping into this longevity pathway and downstream it includes not only activating ampk but inhibiting mtor.

[00:05:08.490] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

But we're learning that all of these, even though they're hitting in the right paths, that they're drugs that, you know, were not intended for our body to naturally use them as longevity molecules. But we're Finding creative ways to try to put them to use.

[00:05:25.290] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, I actually. So it's interesting. We obviously know that caloric restriction is one of the most science backed ways to extend longevity. Right. But what I also really learned as a woman just kind of doing that for quite some time is that it started to not work out super well for me. You know, I was doing a pretty significant caloric deficit, but I kind of started to watch like my thyroid, you know, go in the wrong direction. Some of my hormones become imbalanced. And it was in kind of that moment where I was like, okay, I really need to work on like a, for women, by women protocol. Right. Because I was like, this is really exciting that it can work. And like my husband can do that and he's fine. Nothing changes. It's like Groundhog Day kind of. For men, it's like this same thing over and over. It's great for them. But I started taking rapamycin for a few reasons. There was that really interesting study. It's not yet peer reviewed, but with ovarian aging, so that's really exciting.

[00:06:18.590] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

I haven't seen that.

[00:06:19.430] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

And then, yeah, in the study it actually, it helped to delay ovarian or menopause by about five years. So I'm excited about that. But yeah, thank you for the overview and excited to get into some of these other compounds. So you mentioned that in the book. They go over a whole list of compounds. What are some of the other ones you guys are focused on?

[00:06:40.640] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Those were, those were the primary ones we talked, we dove into mainly rapamycin, metformin. Acarbose was another one. And that is another drug that it's not used in the US but in other countries for diabetes. The way it works is very different than metformin and rapamycin, which work at the cellular level. Acarbose works by basically preventing our ability to absorb carbs. So it kind of just like therefore if we decrease our amount of carbs that we absorb, we live longer. And it's just reliably shown to extend, extend longevity. So. But it was interesting because as we were looking at ways to screen for, you know, and compare our discovered molecule from the dolphins with rapamycin, metformin and carbose. The screening came out exactly as we had expected with regard to that a carbos. We looked at a bunch of different cellular mechanisms and a carbos didn't activate any of them, which made sense because their job is just basically keep the carbs out and we'll live longer. Yeah, it's Just hard to do that on a, on a, on a real life basis.

[00:07:54.680] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Right, True. I wonder. Yeah. So I guess that that study is saying that to reduce carbs overall for longevity. I always feel better anyway not eating a ton of carbs.

[00:08:03.930] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

I do. So you don't go this.

[00:08:05.340] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yes, exactly. I do a lot of like, you know, vegetables, like, you know, really slow digesting, high fiber carbohydrates, but not a lot of just straight, you know, carbohydrates. So I feel better that way. All right, so let's talk about. You have such an interesting background with the dolphins and you've been studying them for a long time. So talk to me about that. How did you get into it and what were you originally looking for? What did you end up finding?

[00:08:30.190] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, well, the discovery was an accident. Kayla, we love to take credit for this amazingly insightful study that it was. Yeah, it was an accident. But 10 years of follow on research to lead to where we are today. And as you shared, I'm a veterinary epidemiologist and I was recruit working for WHO, CDC. And then I was recruited by the Navy about 20 years ago to help start and lead a clinical research program to continually improve the health and welfare of Navy dolphins in San Diego. I thought, oh, I'll take a little break from my career and go do that. And ended up being there for 20 years. It's this amazing program where we have this patient population of long lived large brained mammals that live in the open ocean in San Diego Bay. And this population, Kayla, lives a lot longer than dolphins in the wild. So dolphins in the wild live to about 20 years old on average. At the Navy they're living 40, 50, even to 60, 60 years old. So we've got this, you know, over a 10 year period we had this growing population of geriatric dolphins and we were seeing that some of them, but not all were developing aging related conditions which were sounding mighty familiar, like high cholesterol, chronic inflammation, arthritis, fatty liver disease, even the full suite of changes consistent with Alzheimer's.

[00:09:58.720] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. So all of a sudden it was this parallel which my job was to find a way. I had Navy funding to figure out why some dolphins were developing these conditions and others weren't. For the dolphins.

[00:10:13.940] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, right.

[00:10:14.780] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And so, Ann, I had the good fortune to be able to reach out to experts in human health, human Alzheimer's, human metabolism, human liver health, and they were eager to get involved because, you know, dolphins, so I know they're so cute. Like who doesn't want to help and learn More about dolphins. So, long story short, we were able to use an advanced technology called metabolomics that allowed us to study thousands of small molecules present in both the dolphins archive serum which they'd archived throughout their whole lives as part of their routine healthcare, as well as metabolomics, understanding the molecules. And they're all fish, fish diet. And that allowed us to find which small molecules predicted the healthiest aging dolphins. We thought it would be omega 3s because they eat fish. And we were wrong. It was C15, this saturated fat and odd chain saturated fatty acid that surprised us all as the top predictor of the healthiest aging dolphins.

[00:11:23.800] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I am obsessed with this and I always get so excited when I come across something, you know, new. I mean, I've known about you guys now for, I mean, at least a few years. I. But tell us all the details about this molecule. Where are the fish getting it? You know, just all the details.

[00:11:40.540] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. So what we learned from the dolphins was that some of the fish they were offered, they're offered five different types of fish and it ended up that two of them had no C15 in it and three types had various levels of C15. And the dolphins would have preferences. So some of them got fed almost 90% of their diet or happened to be the fish that had no C15 in it, while there were other dolphins that were getting the high C15 fish. And that created this population where basically everything else being controlled, which we can't do in humans. Right. We can't create a 50 year study where right. That controlled. So it became a very clean picture that fish, and it was really based upon the amount of fat they have in their fishes. The more fat the fish have, the more C15 they have. And it's also in their skin and the heads of the fish, which we don't tend to eat as often in many cultures. So we were able to then give the dolphins, these fast aging dolphins of a higher C15 fish diet. And Kayla, it was really exciting. We saw complete alleviation of chronic anemia of aging.

[00:13:01.600] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

We saw improved insulin sensitivity and we saw this, what has now emerged as a syndrome of C15 deficiency completely resolve in the dolphins. So from there we were then it was still. So first it was association and then it was like, okay, if we change their diet with higher C15, we raise C15 and they get better. But from there we really then moved Pure C15 into the lab and spent 10 years with Navy funding because Navy was interested enough in the promise of this molecule to say, can you find A way to actually use this as a way to help improve health that isn't dependent upon which fish were available. And for us, our primary source is dairy fat, which, you know, we can go into problems there.

[00:13:52.820] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. Well, real quick. So which fish had the highest levels of the C15?

[00:13:56.950] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

It was. So there were fish called tinfish and mullet.

[00:14:00.960] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

So fish are not really eating.

[00:14:03.990] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

No sushi offering, though I do eat fish probably every day. We do have to be careful of the contaminants. But, yeah, so it was these fish, mullet. There are some communities that eat mullet. And when you look at, like, USDA tables of measurements of fatty acids, different types of mullet pretty consistently have the highest levels of C15 compared to other types of fish.

[00:14:29.920] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

So is it what they're eating?

[00:14:31.660] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, we're not sure. Like, that was a good question. Is like, if they're algae eaters versus if they're higher up the food chain, does that dictate it? My hypothesis would be it's probably a combination of their algae that they're getting. And then like in cows, for example, we know that the cow rumen, it's the bacteria in the rumen that makes C15, and that's how it gets in the dairy fat. So we're still learning how the fish are, you know, getting that C15, but probably algae is playing a source and at least helping their gut make C15.

[00:15:06.960] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Got it. So I'll be totally honest. When I first came across this product, I thought it was kind of like a different type of omega 3.

[00:15:14.070] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Right.

[00:15:14.750] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

So can you explain. Explain the differences? And then I'm excited to, like, go into the research. Like, what are you guys seeing in terms of all the benefits and the mechanisms of this new molecule?

[00:15:26.230] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, so many. So many. So. So. And it was fair that you were confused about it. So it's a C15, is a fatty acid, just like Omega 3. It's the first essential fatty acid to be discovered in over 90 years. And so essential fatty acid, meaning it's a nutrient that our bodies must have to maintain just baseline physiological health. But our bodies don't make enough of it on its own. Therefore, we have to get certain levels from our diet. And so the other two. There are only two other known essential fatty acids, and one's an omega 3 and one's an omega 6. So it makes, you know, they're all in the kind of same world. What's very different about C15 is that while the Omega 3s are polyunsaturated fatty acids, it means that they're oils at room temperature. And that's because their chemical structure, they have double bonds in their structure which makes them flexible. And it's good for our cell membranes to have flexibility. But those double bonds are susceptible to attack by oxygen. And so that's why you see lipid peroxidation becoming a problem in the bottle. You know, if it's, if they get exposed to oxygen then you get the rancidity and that fishy smell taste sometimes with fish oil supplements.

[00:16:46.940] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And it can do the same thing in our bodies. And with C15 it's the opposite. It's a saturated fat, no double bonds. So it's super resistant against lipid peroxidation in our cells. And one of its core roles is to physically strengthen our cells against attack by oxygen. And two, it's ended up that this mechanism is an enabler of longevity in mammals. Why it explains why humans live longer than mice. So it's an odd chain saturated fatty acid. We all have heard our whole lives, saturated fats are bad. We weren't wrong. What we were wrong was that not all saturated fats are created equal. So even chain saturated fatty acids that have an even number of carbons like C16, C18, those are still pro inflammatory. High levels in red meat and dairy fat, a higher risk of type 2 diabetes, heart disease, fatty liver disease. What was hiding in this tiny 1% of fat in milk is C15, an odd chain saturated fatty acid that's not only anti inflammatory and beneficial, but meeting this rare definition of, of an essential fatty acid.

[00:18:02.020] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Thank you for that. Do you recommend still taking omegas or does this kind of like completely take that off the need?

[00:18:10.250] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

It's a great question. So you know, and we've kind of evolved. Right. As we've been learning more and more about C15 and how it compares to the Omega 3s, you know, where we're at, it's, it's kind of like, you know, what we've discovered is like a new vitamin. It's the same definition of nutrient that we must have in order to stay healthy. So it would be like saying we, we discovered vitamin E. We wouldn't say don't take vitamin A. Yeah. So the essential fatty acids I think still hold. We cover, we have a chapter in the book of Talking about the Omega 3 world and where it's at. What we know is we do need these fatty acids. They don't work as well. They become more challenging once you get them outside of outside in the world because the molecules are susceptible and that Limits their. It just makes their efficacy less predictable. And so the way that I get the Omega 3s are from. Are from fish is my personal preferred source of it. So we need a mix of both. But especially as we age, we get older, we gotta get that C15 too.

[00:19:25.760] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. I look at a lab called the Omega index. Yes. And I've, you know, come across some research that says you should be at least having an omega index over 8. But the you can. I usually keep mine around 10. And it seems to be a correlation between longer lifespan, less cardiovascular disease, which I'm sure is also the same with, with the C15. Is there any minimum threshold and optimal threshold that you guys are aware of right now with this product?

[00:19:55.310] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

We are. So we published a paper last year, toward the end of last year, in metabolites, and that's where we shared what would be expected of an essential fatty acid, which is a deficiency syndrome. So like vitamin C deficiency in scurvy and vitamin D deficiency in rickets, if it's truly essential, there should be evidence of a deficiency if we have low levels of it. So because our source of C15, our primary source by far of C15 is dairy fat, and since 1977, we've drastically decreased our intake of whole dairy fat, our C15 levels have been declining over the past 50 years. And what we now know, and interestingly this paired perfectly with the dolphins who were also developing these deficiencies that went on this low C15 diet, was that if our cells have less than 0.2% of C15 in them, the cells become fragile and they fall apart, calling what we're calling cellular fragility syndrome. So we know that there is this absolutely, this threshold of if we have less than 0.2% of C15 of all fatty acids in our cell membrane, it literally loses its stability. There's optimal levels. So most of the. And most of the world is sitting, kayla, right at 0.2%. So we're like right on this edge of falling off the cliff.

[00:21:24.090] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

There's evidence from, like, places like Sardinia where, you know, people are living longer. Specifically in Sardinia, people are living longer because they're less likely to die of heart disease. And Sardinians have C15 levels that are two to three times higher than the average population of 0.4 to 0.6%. And there's a separate study that was done by Harvard and a bunch of other institutions, and they showed large scale studies of people throughout the world showing that that same level, people who had C15 levels between 0.4 to 0.6 had the lowest risk of developing heart disease over time. So there's support that there's these optimal levels that are two to three times higher than what we're sitting on today. But we definitely strength of the data, the highest strength right now is just like we just definitely should, let's not be deficient because there's evidence it's accelerating our aging through this deficiency syndrome.

[00:22:26.850] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. Are the Sardinians mostly getting it from the milk fat? Is that where they're getting it?

[00:22:31.580] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

That's a great question. So yeah. So they have a really unique diet where they are this culture that lives in a mountainous region on the island of Sardinia. They have gone through like over like lots and lots of like thousands of years. They've gone through multiple rounds of famine. And so they have what's called a famine diet in which they've learned how to have foods that will get them through tough times. And a lot of it has continued on today. So they have traded out meat for the most part for cheese, which is really interesting. So they'll eat meat maybe once a week. But for the most part a lot of their proteins are coming from cheese. They have, they herd. So they're herders. They herd sheep and goats who feed on mountainous grass. And wonderfully studies show that literally goats and sheep that graze on mountainous high altitude grass produce the highest C15 level milk and cheeses. So their cheese for example, is pecorino which has some of the highest C15 levels out there. So that's how they're getting their C15 fix.

[00:23:43.280] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I don't know how I feel about getting my protein all from cheese. I think just something just like.

[00:23:48.950] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And I important to add they're reliably, their calories are lower than our average. You know, you can only eat so.

[00:23:58.530] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Much cheese you can without like feeling unwell.

[00:24:01.280] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

I feel like that's right. And they're herders therefore. And so they walk three to five miles a day and mountainous. So there's a combination of things that are really enabling them to put that C15 to work.

[00:24:14.720] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Nice. I love that. The one thing that I don't like that we do here sometimes in the malnuts industry is like because people in the blue zones drink alcohol. Right. You know, then we extrapolate that one piece and say, oh, you know, it's fine. Well, I think now we're finally getting to a place where like alcohol is a neurotoxin. We're not going to do it. But for so long. I remember I used to make posts about this like five years ago and people were so upset, they're like no, there's resveratrol and you know it's, there's all these reasons and they drink it in the blue zones. But the problem is you can't just extract that one tiny thing and then not have any of the other lifestyle components like the community or the walking or the nature and think that it's going to fit into your sedentary diet. Watching television all day. It just, it doesn't work like that.

[00:24:58.940] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

It's a piece of the puzzle.

[00:25:00.520] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, totally. Hi guys. I'm going to interrupt this episode for a brief announcement. As you may or may not know, I started Community for Females by females and it's a female longevity optimization community. This is a place that you can connect with like minded women. We are all here to support each other and there's a variety of different benefits to being a member. You get a monthly ask me anything. So submit your questions and I'll answer them directly. We also have an entire library of courses on all of the important components of longevity such as labs, nutrition, exercise, sleep optimization, longevity optimization protocols that I'm doing along with real time updates to my personal protocols. There are so many benefits of being a member of the community. We'll also be doing in person person live events here in California and virtual events for anyone that can't attend. But if you're interested in joining the community I would absolutely love to see you there and I will include a link in the show Notes. What are some of the like talk about how it's impacting longevity in a positive way and also can we test for this?

[00:26:07.350] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. So there like I said it would mentioned working with Dr. Nick Schork that you're head of NIH's longevity consortium that we really developed these seven must haves of a longevity molecule and whether it's C15 or anything else. And the first is it needs to tap into the human longevity pathway which we've already talked about. So C15 both activates AMPK, which is what metformin does and inhibits MTOR of what rapamycin does. So it really hits at the heart of what we'd expect from a longevity molecule. Second, it should target hallmarks of aging. Right. The list keeps growing. I think we're. I don't know what we're at now.

[00:26:49.050] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Last time I searched like 14.

[00:26:50.510] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

There you go, 14. And so we know that C15 targets at least six. So it repairs mitochondrial function and helps with cellular signaling by being an mtor inhibitor. It helps with those senescent zombie cells. It helps with gut dysbiosis. There's some fascinating work that's come out showing in multiple models of mice with different forms of colitis and leaky gut syndrome that pure C15 closed up the leaky gut, healed the leaky gut, calmed inflammation, and helped to restore the gut. In a clinical trial with C15 supplementation, C15 within 12 weeks increased the growth of Bifidobacterium adolescentis. Who's like a great mama microbe, which is also which helps with metabolism. But it's also that microbe in itself has been shown to extend longevity in worms. So gotta take that with like a grain of salt. And so it targets six hallmarks of aging. The third is that there should be evidence that the longevity molecules slows the rate at which we age. And C15 has been shown to do this from some core key measurements, including red blood cell distribution. Width, or rdw is a really good measurement of how well our cells are staying stable. A lot of great work has been coming out from groups all over the world showing RDW as a reliable biomarker of aging rate.

[00:28:23.800] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And C15 physically stabilizes those cells and shores them up and evens out, stabilizes that rdw. There was a study that just came out last year showing, looking at epigenetic aging and showed that people with more C50, higher C15 had a younger biological age than their chronological age. Interesting.

[00:28:49.810] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

What this is a bit of an aside, but with the red blood cells, what mechanism of aging do we think is actually causing those to become unstable?

[00:28:59.720] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, it's a great question. So our cell membranes become less stable as we age. And it's literally the fatty acids, the fragility of the fatty acids within the cell membrane. And so this gets to the heart of what we ended up seeing in the dolphins and is now, you know, appears to be present as many as one in three people globally. Where our cells become fragile because of low C15. And then they that results in the DEP is basically we have these cells in our liver called KUFR cells that sit and wait for fragile red blood cells, which is a normal thing, where it'll take in the fragile red blood cells and recycle the iron back to our body. When we have a lot of fragile red blood cells because of low C15 levels, these klipper cells are now taking in lots and lots of red blood cells. This is resulting now, Kayla, in iron overload and iron deposition in the liver. And when you combine this excess iron in the liver with these fragile lipids, it results in an entirely new form of cell death called ferroptosis, which was discovered by scientists at Columbia University back in 2012.

[00:30:17.430] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

10,000 papers written on ferroptosis of an entirely new way your cells are dying, we know that accelerates aging, the onset and worsening of type 2 diabetes, heart disease, fatty liver disease. The, the big question nobody could answer was where did it come from? Like how are cells there? It's been long. There are only three ways our cells die. What do you mean there's a fourth new way our cells are dying. And so, and that's where the dolphins gifted us, you know, with a very clean and clear answer, which is C15 deficiencies are causing this whole new form of cell death. So we have an opportunity to. So that's how, that's it all as in an iron combines with lipid peroxidation. It goes from the liver. We've got fatty liver disease. It then spreads and seeds throughout our body, affects the heart, our pancreas, with regard to insulin resistance and diabetes. Heart disease closely tied to fatty liver disease and also into our brain. So there's a lot of work right now on iron metabolism going awry. And now we're understanding this pathophysiology behind it.

[00:31:24.090] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

From a lab standpoint, would someone be looking for too high of iron levels, too high of ferritin levels? Do you have any idea?

[00:31:31.680] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

We do so and it's, it's, we're lucky in which it very closely follows. The dolphins were, it was so clean, you know, in them, they didn't, we didn't have like some dolphins that smoked and some drink alcohol. Like it was like one thing, right? One syndrome that was very clean and clear and was fixable. So we can test for C15 to get to your earlier question. Fatty acid panels, really, it wasn't until maybe 2012, 2015 that they started including C15 in fatty acid. C15 for a long time was actually used as the ruler to measure all the other fatty acids. So it was automatically left out of analyzes. Then they started including C15 in the studies. And all these studies came out showing the same thing we saw in dolphins. Higher C15 better, you know, lower risk of type 2 diabetes, heart disease, fatty liver disease. So it's well established ability to test for C15. But you have to look to make sure that, you know, not all fatty acid panels today include C15. And so you just need to look and make sure that they can. We did work with Genova Diagnostics to develop a blood spot test that people can use.

[00:32:50.420] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Like I used that, that people can take from their home and have a, you know, 0.46 C15 level. So super happy where that's at. So there is an ability to test. And then with more important. Right. Are the clinically relevant tests our doctors care about. Right. So you would detect this syndrome with high ferritin. Sometimes it gets mistaken as a marker as only a marker for inflammation, which it is. But increasingly this is becoming a clear marker of iron overload. It has this mean trick of our bodies have this mean trick of more red blood cells get weak, engulfed by the liver. We have deposition of iron. So we have iron overload that's toxic in our livers. And at the same time our iron levels are actually low in our blood. So you get diagnosed with iron deficiency anemia and you have the problem of there's too much iron in your liver. So increasingly doctors are combining measuring iron in the blood with ferritin levels to make sure that it's not, you know, because you wouldn't want to throw more fuel onto the fire with, with regard to iron. But there is pure iron deficiency anemia, just to be clear.

[00:34:15.740] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, yeah. So really, if we're thinking about like trying to rank the top benefits so like really improving the health of the cells is like I would say number one. That's right. What is the, the mechanism for any issues? We know CBD is the number one killer for women and men. So is it helping just with inflammation within? Talk to me about that a little bit.

[00:34:38.490] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, it has a lot of other. It's a pleiotropic molecule, which means it just has a lot of benefits, which again, an essential nutrient to always have. So it also does things like inhibit PPAR alpha delta. These are just known orchestrators of our metabolism and immunity. It inhibits JAK static 6 JAK stat as well as HDAC 6. These are. JAK Stat is, you know, the commercials you see on TV for people with autoimmune diseases or like psoriasis or whatever.

[00:35:12.750] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I don't watch TV much, but it's actually wild when I glance and my husband is watching. It's like one pharma commercial after another. And I'm just like, how is this a thing?

[00:35:21.480] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And there's like 8,000 side effects, you know, listed at the end of it. But JAK Stat inhibitors is a, a very, a growing popular target to help calm immune systems down. And then HDAC6, both of these mechanisms are also anti cancer functions. They're Entirely different groups that are focusing on the anti cancer activities of C15. So we know that just like rapamycin, C15 is anti inflammatory, antioxidant, anti cancer, anti inflammatory and antimicrobial. It even stops the growth of, of pathogenic bacteria and fungi. So it's kind of a wonky mix of tools. But if you think about it, if you have those tools then you're more likely to, you know you're going to live longer and you know with as far as like longevity must have number four was clinically relevant benefits you can see within months. This isn't about crossing your fingers and hoping and praying you live longer. We need to get better. Right. We need to heal, we need to be healthier. So being able to. We know that C15, there's two large or two clinical trials with C15 showing that in people with fatty liver disease that it lowers liver enzymes, improves that red blood cell strength and health, improves the gut microbiome and lowered LDL cholesterol.

[00:36:44.770] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And then the last is evidence that it doesn't, that there's evidence that it prevents the onset of the diseases that kill us. And that's kind of where the urgency is with regard to people with higher C15 reliably in large studies, lower risk of developing type 2 diabetes, fatty liver disease, heart disease. Interesting areas with regard to cancer and specifically for including women like colorectal cancer, uterine cancers and breast cancers. And we're seeing a rise among 30 somethings right. In these types of cancers. And so you've covered these topics and what is increasing the risk. And in the 1990s really the regulations doubled down on decreasing C15 in infants and babies. Where when you're a two year old, when you're two, you know, you have a child and that child turns 2 years old today a doctor says it's time to move your child off of whole fat milk and put them on non fat or skim milk.

[00:37:53.370] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Oh yeah, regardless of recommendation. But I won't be doing that.

[00:37:56.640] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. So I mean regardless of their, you know, of their state and even worse, they now say that if a child is, you know, has a family history of obesity or diabetes, they're told to not put that infant on whole fat milk ever. So. Right.

[00:38:18.820] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

And so are we just not like you not have eyes? Is that like the question? Like if that's the recommendation and we see that this is clearly not working. Yeah, we just keep doing it. It just, it's maddening.

[00:38:29.460] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

It's hard. It's hard. And that's a Big reason for this conversation, for the book, you know, is it's really to say we cannot. It's not just us, you know, with doing the studies. And it was adult. This has been 10 years of rigorous research coming from prestigious institutions throughout the world. You cannot explain C15 away anymore. We at least have to sit around a table and understand for women, we're seeing a lot of exciting research coming out showing that with regard to diminished ovarian reserve, people with. That they have. That's associated with lower C15. The more C15 you put into with in vitro fertilization studies, the more C15 that's in the milieu for those embryos, the healthier they divide. When we move into pregnancy, women with higher C15 less likely to develop gestational diabetes. Their Fetus gets more C15 from them and they have better body growth, better brain development. And now there are studies following a cohort all the way to children being 6 years old, showing that the more C15 mom had and gave to her baby, the better that child did, even looking at cognitive development to six years old. So it's like.

[00:39:46.150] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And, you know, infant. Most infant formulas don't have C15 in them. And, you know, only 10% of kids at 12 months old have been exposed to whole fat milk.

[00:39:56.340] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Wow.

[00:39:56.810] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. It's really. So we're, we're trying to, It's. It's definitely a movement of just increase educating. So, yeah. Conversations.

[00:40:04.180] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

She's so wild. We've just like gotten away from all the things that make a lot of sense to consume and have in our diets. And now it's like, we should be not giving our child the whole fat milk. We should be giving our child the, the powder with the required seed oils in it here in the United States, it's like, what is going on here?

[00:40:21.660] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

It's tough. And you know, for, for, for me, you know, as a veterinarian, like, I knew I wanted to become an epidemiologist and I thought I was going to go to medical school, but I was fortunate enough to meet somebody who said, hey, Steph, if you really want to understand disease, go become a veterinarian, because you're going to understand what that disease does across multiple species, and you're going to better understand solutions. And, you know, like you said, there's common sense. Every mammal is given milk birth. It's like nature's perfect food for our child's development and growth. And so why would we take. Take that away? And then, and then on the flip side, no other mammals Continue to eat whole fat dairy, you know, throughout the whole life. Yeah, throughout their whole life. So that's where the Navy came in and said, hey, can we find a way to develop, you know, a pure C15 ingredient that is able to deliver the benefits of C15 without having to compete with, you know, there's more than 40% pro inflammatory fats in milks and if a cow is fed grass, it is twice as much C15 than if it's fed corn.

[00:41:35.920] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

But we don't necessarily know what they're fed. But I know your encouragement of grass fed is, it's extra, even further validated.

[00:41:43.790] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Good, I love that, I love that. I, I felt it. Can you do like a mega, let's say someone's listening to this right now and they are like, oh, I probably have really low C15 levels. Can you do like a mega dose and try to get your levels up or do you just recommend just going with.

[00:42:01.710] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, we, it's, it's pretty reliable how much you can influence your C15 levels, but based upon how much you take, you know, we recommend one to two capsules. So 100 to 200 milligrams a day of added C15 is what we need. People often say just drink milk, but we know that milk studies, even directly comparing C15 with dairy fat, it's like night and day on C15 is beneficial. And milk fat was detrimental in models of fatty liver disease and diabetes. So it's being able to get to that right level is important. And so we recommend that people try that. If you do take more like a mega dose, the mega dose would be something more like two to three pills versus like take, you know, eight, eight capsules. And to get yourself caught up because your, your cells, it's think of them as like a dry sponge in which it's been a drought. And as soon as you start putting C15 into your system, those cell membranes are going to absorb that C15 readily and it's going to, you know, be put to work pretty darn quickly. So even just those two capsules a day, if you were low, should get you caught up in a relatively quick.

[00:43:19.900] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

And how many months is it taking in your studies?

[00:43:23.350] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

So all the clinical trials today and even all the other model studies are all based on 12 weeks. So. But we do see improvements within, usually within a month in these studies. And we have 50% of our customers with the C15 supplement, you know, fatty 15, we have 50% of our customers report feeling better within two weeks and 72% seeing or feeling Benefits, which means going to your doctor within 16 weeks. So.

[00:43:55.550] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Nice. Yeah, I love that.

[00:43:56.750] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, that's really nice.

[00:43:57.910] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

I also think it's interesting that you guys in the research, you kind of did the opposite of what we're mostly doing in, like longevity research. You were looking at what animal lives the longest versus, like, how can we take this mouse and then make it live longer? So that, I mean, that was just a super interesting way to go about it, I think.

[00:44:18.220] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, it was good fortune. You know, it's. And good for the na. Good on the Navy, right, For having us, you know, being able to have the foresight to. And desire to bring in a veterinary epidemiologist to come in and say, listen, we've got 50 years of data. We've got aging Navy dolphins. Can you help sort this out for us? And then we had this long lived population. And that's where I think a lot of limitations of longevity molecule candidates today is. Kayla, exactly what you're saying. Almost all the studies in the research are based upon extending the lifespan of a mouse or worm or fly. So, like a worm goes, instead of living one week, it lives two. And the headline is doubles your lifespan. Right. So, yeah, and it's not. It's good. It's a good place to start, but it's not translating as well as we had hoped with some of these promising molecules that looked amazing in these short lived species. But like you said, when you think about it again, common sense, nature and evolution has already figured out longevity. How does a human live, you know, 37 times longer than a mouse or 27 times longer than a mouse is like, that's mind blowing.

[00:45:34.890] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Like how. And we're mammals, we have the same organs. So what is enabling that and what we're understanding as part of this cell membrane pacemaker theory of aging, which was introduced by AJ Holbert in 2005, the stronger the fatty acids in our cell membranes literally explains how we extend longevity in mammals. This is how nature has done it. So let's first not take that out of nature's trick to help us live longer and not age faster. But then can we optimize it so that, you know, we could then leverage that trick and keep us healthier longer?

[00:46:10.130] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, absolutely. What do the dolphins do for the Navy, or what are they doing there?

[00:46:14.480] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

So they. The program originated back in the 1960s when there was a dolphin named Tuffy who. They had Tuffy, and they were actually looking to see if Tuffy could teach them how to like, create submarines that could go faster. It didn't really pan out.

[00:46:30.370] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Okay. Yeah.

[00:46:31.090] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

But they had aquanauts at the time. And what they had were they had these bases down deep in the water where Navy people, aquanauts would live to understand the effects of pressure, high pressure. But the problem was to get supplies to them was difficult. And so Tuffy was like, eee. What are you? I'll do it. And so Tuffy would. Ended up being a delivery animal for. To deliver supplies to the aquanauts. And they're like, well, Tuffy's, like, not attached to anything and choosing to stay with us and popping up and being like, what else? How else can I help? That ended up being the start of the program. But for. For. Since then, they found that, you know, these dolphins really work willingly and happily with their human counterparts. So they're able to very easily find underwater objects. They've done humanitarian demining in the Mediterranean. Obviously, swimming animals in the ocean don't set off the mines because there's lots of them in the ocean. But they're able to find where there is a buried mine, tag the area, and then humans go in and have helped clear up entire areas. Wow. And they can find enemy swimmers, too, which is.

[00:47:43.280] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Oh, wow. Which is an enemy swimmer.

[00:47:45.980] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. So if there's someone in where they shouldn't be and, you know, around military bases or whatever, dolphins and sea lions, the poor folks are like, steph, you never give the sea lions any credit. But both the dolphins and sea lions can detect an enemy swimmer. And then they'll go get a leg cuff, they put it in their mouth, and they'll come up and attach the cuff to the leg, which is attached to a cable, they swim away. And then.

[00:48:12.730] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Wow.

[00:48:13.360] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Pretty amazing.

[00:48:14.240] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

That is pretty amazing. I did not know all about that at all.

[00:48:16.620] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

So they're keeping our harbors and our military personnel safe. And again, it's. This is incredibly easy for them. And for me, as a veterinarian, I didn't know how I'd feel about Navy dolphins and went to San Diego, saw how well they live. They again, go into the open ocean, live in the open ocean. They choose to stay. There's just not much.

[00:48:39.070] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Do they really come back and report to work every day, or they're just.

[00:48:41.830] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

I mean, they have their pod, and they're very faithful to their family. They reproduce very well. So much so that they need to separate the females and males.

[00:48:51.350] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Oh, wow.

[00:48:51.950] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Because otherwise they'd be having babies all day long.

[00:48:55.650] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

How big is a baby dolphin born?

[00:48:59.430] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Gosh, let's see. My dolphin folks. Are Going to get me. But I'd say they're probably born at maybe about 30 pounds.

[00:49:04.990] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Okay. Like how?

[00:49:06.080] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Like this big up. Yeah. A. Oh, they're so cute. They pop out and. Oh gosh, it's, it's amazing. And it's a, it's a very like a female driven culture in that world where the fellow females will start lactating that in case baby needed support because the moms can continue to have babies until pretty late in life. And so if something happened to mom, the other females in the pod start lactating and the baby is able to be able to get the nutrition it needs from the kids. It's pretty amazing.

[00:49:46.670] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

That is really cool. I also love that the moms are able to have babies for a long time.

[00:49:51.000] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah. Right. So cool.

[00:49:52.770] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

How old about. Are they able to like have babies?

[00:49:55.280] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

You know, it decreases. The how often they get pregnant will decrease with age. We do see some signs of senescence, but I think we've seen as old as in their 40s still being. Which for a dolphin who lives to 50 to 60 at the Navy and in the wild at 20 is pretty good. Maybe it's at C15, maybe.

[00:50:19.830] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah.

[00:50:21.150] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Keeping those eggs.

[00:50:22.950] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

They have like warmer bodies too, right. Than a lot of other scenes seeing animals.

[00:50:28.130] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

They do. They have this remarkable ability to shunt blood away from the surface and into their body. So as you can imagine, if, when water gets cold, they have not only the blubber layer, but if you're able to move the blood that's circulating throughout your body away from the surface, you're able to keep yourself warmer and better protected, which is great for them. Not great if you're trying to get blood pressure because, yeah, you can't put a blood pressure cuff on it all. But they shunt their blood away.

[00:51:00.090] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. It's a topic I've been thinking about a lot. It's a bit, you know, an aside, but what do we think is better? Do we think having higher temperature, thinking about metabolic rate, or having a significantly lower body temperature is better?

[00:51:16.750] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

You know, it's a, it's a really good question and I don't have the answer because I could come up with the flip side, right. Which is like you look at. Even though mammals are cetaceans are good at protecting their body heat. If you look at the cetaceans that live in the coldest areas, some of the coldest areas and deepest waters, those are the ones that live the longest. Right. You have bowhead whales that are living to 200. So I think there is something for cold and cool slowing things down, but their ability to be able to preserve that, maybe it's making the best use of heat in a colder environment. Not sure.

[00:51:56.510] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, no, it's a good, it's a great question because a lot of times too, I feel like for women as, like when I was doing a lot of caloric restriction and I was getting cooler, but then also my thyroid was slowing down. So I'm like, I don't know, it's such a delicate balance, right.

[00:52:10.960] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And with that good, you know, then all of a sudden it's like, wait, no, I don't, yeah, I don't want that. So yeah, but you know, your body's adapting, adapting to these different demands.

[00:52:19.060] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah. So interesting. Well, this has been so interesting. Is there anything else that you would like to say that we haven't covered yet?

[00:52:27.190] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Gosh, a couple things I guess. One is, you know, when the science is continuing. So even though the books, the longevity book, you know, the book is written, Simon Schuster reached out and they said, hey, we saw your TED talk, we've been following your science. This is a book, will you write it? And of course it's like, yes, this is such a great way to get the conversation going. But. So as the research continued, we discovered a second molecule called pentadecanoyl carnitine. And it ends up it's a metabolite of C15. So we take eat C15 and it attaches to a carnitine. This molecule is the second ever discovered full acting endocannabinoid. So it fully activates CB1 and CB2 receptors. And you know, we have these receptors are not, you know, throughout our body and brain. They're not there for cannabis. I mean cannabis targets them, but they're there for another reason. Dogs have them and dolphins have them and pigs have them. So what we're learning is that C15 is essential not just for all the things, things we've talked about with, for supporting longevity, but also to make this metabolite that helps explain that, you know, for myself and for others who started taking, you know, fatty 15 within that two weeks, calmer mood, deeper sleep, less joint pain.

[00:53:55.550] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

And we thought those were placebo effects. Calyx, I'm like, that doesn't make sense with what sprinting does. But now we're understanding the role that this metabolite, important role this metabolite may be playing in quality of life in our mental health. So just important with regard to, it's kind of, it's a delight and surprise, but it may end up playing a much bigger, more important role in understanding brain health. So we're now focusing on better understanding. Have a paper in review talking about the role of C15 to our, our brain health and cognitive health. So stay tuned.

[00:54:33.070] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Yeah, that's so exciting. What? You'll have to keep us updated. And I think I have a code for savings that I'll make sure that I add in the show notes. But no, I mean, I've been taking it now for quite a while and really love it. I'm excited. I have to make sure that my Omega test is actually testing for C15. I have to look at, look back and make sure and if not, I'll add it on order. The one that you guys did with Genova.

[00:54:52.910] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Yeah, that's. That's great. That's great. Yeah, the movement is on. Is. You know, we're excited to be able to have conversations with you and our fellow ambassador. So thanks for joining the movement.

[00:55:03.660] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Thank you for being here today. This was so fun.

[00:55:06.040] - DR. STEPHANIE VENN-WATSON

Great. Thanks, Kayla.

[00:55:07.070] - KAYLA BARNES-LENTZ

Of course. Thank you. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and views expressed on this podcast are not medical advice. This podcast, including Kayla Barnes, does not accept responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of the information contained contained herein. Opinions of their guests are their own, and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. If you think you have a medical issue, consult a licensed physician.